Comments on: When do you stop designing? http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/ from Jay Cross and Internet Time Group Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:23:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Observations on If, When, & How Much Instructional Design « Experiencing E-Learning http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1203 Observations on If, When, & How Much Instructional Design « Experiencing E-Learning Fri, 07 Mar 2008 04:23:29 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1203 [...] is recognizing when a project is simple enough to pass onto a SME. Tony Karrer’s response to Jay Cross discusses how instructional designers break down learning tasks; I think that’s analysis even [...] [...] is recognizing when a project is simple enough to pass onto a SME. Tony Karrer’s response to Jay Cross discusses how instructional designers break down learning tasks; I think that’s analysis even [...]

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By: Instructional Design - If, When and How Much? | knowledgeworks http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1193 Instructional Design - If, When and How Much? | knowledgeworks Sat, 01 Mar 2008 21:19:54 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1193 [...] braucht? Die Diskussion ist in vollem Gange. “Common sense and intuition”, sagt z.B. Jay Cross. “Not enough”, antwortet Tony Karrer. “The problem (as usual) is [...] [...] braucht? Die Diskussion ist in vollem Gange. “Common sense and intuition”, sagt z.B. Jay Cross. “Not enough”, antwortet Tony Karrer. “The problem (as usual) is [...]

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By: Notes on Instructional Design « Viplav Baxi’s Meanderings http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1195 Notes on Instructional Design « Viplav Baxi’s Meanderings Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:33:45 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1195 [...] development. One important challenge really is common sense and intuition (see Jay Cross’s comments). However, a bigger challenge is that common sense is really not all that common. Nor, [...] [...] development. One important challenge really is common sense and intuition (see Jay Cross’s comments). However, a bigger challenge is that common sense is really not all that common. Nor, [...]

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By: Jeff’s del.icio.us bookmarks for February 14th | Learn to Adapt http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1204 Jeff’s del.icio.us bookmarks for February 14th | Learn to Adapt Fri, 15 Feb 2008 01:59:14 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1204 [...] When do you stop designing? — Internet Time Blog - Jay Cross weighs in on ISD/ADDIE and how it needs to be flexible based on the content and context. His discussion is circular and what starts are castigation of ADDIE returns to a very ADDIE-like model. [...] [...] When do you stop designing? — Internet Time Blog – Jay Cross weighs in on ISD/ADDIE and how it needs to be flexible based on the content and context. His discussion is circular and what starts are castigation of ADDIE returns to a very ADDIE-like model. [...]

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By: Why Bother with Instructional Design? « eLearning Development News http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1197 Why Bother with Instructional Design? « eLearning Development News Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:03:58 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1197 [...] several of the responses and the blog post by Cammy Bean that inspired the question. I think I like Jay Cross’s response the best, probably because it’s short and obvious. (People often don’t see the [...] [...] several of the responses and the blog post by Cammy Bean that inspired the question. I think I like Jay Cross’s response the best, probably because it’s short and obvious. (People often don’t see the [...]

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By: Stephen Lahanas http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1200 Stephen Lahanas Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:58:55 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1200 I noticed the response from Lee, what he is describing is to a great extent what e-Learning 1.0 tried so hard to accomplish. Your post recognizes a key consideration - namely that learning is for the learners not the assessors. The techniques used to provide learning that fits the needs of learners rather than our expectations of what those needs should are involves all sorts of design approaches. For example, constructing a content management system / discovery portal involves design in terms of User Interface, taxonomy and content structure and metadata. Many would argue that a CMS and the knowledge within it falls outsides the bounds of elearning, I however disagree. I noticed the response from Lee, what he is describing is to a great extent what e-Learning 1.0 tried so hard to accomplish.

Your post recognizes a key consideration – namely that learning is for the learners not the assessors. The techniques used to provide learning that fits the needs of learners rather than our expectations of what those needs should are involves all sorts of design approaches.

For example, constructing a content management system / discovery portal involves design in terms of User Interface, taxonomy and content structure and metadata. Many would argue that a CMS and the knowledge within it falls outsides the bounds of elearning, I however disagree.

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By: Donald Clark http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1194 Donald Clark Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:34:51 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1194 Jay, I don't think the "basic approach" that you outlined is the way most people go about solving problems. From what I have observed, most people just "shoot from the hip." Thus I'm inclined to think that the "basic approach" is actually based upon the ADDIE model. Anyway, its a interesting post and discussion. Jay, I don’t think the “basic approach” that you outlined is the way most people go about solving problems. From what I have observed, most people just “shoot from the hip.” Thus I’m inclined to think that the “basic approach” is actually based upon the ADDIE model. Anyway, its a interesting post and discussion.

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By: Instructional Design - q.b? « Viveiro http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1199 Instructional Design - q.b? « Viveiro Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:42:58 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1199 [...] São muitas perguntas e ainda não são todas. Respostas óbvias também existem: “depende” ou “bom senso e intuição“. [...] [...] São muitas perguntas e ainda não são todas. Respostas óbvias também existem: “depende” ou “bom senso e intuição“. [...]

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By: Jay Cross http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1198 Jay Cross Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:41:31 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1198 Donald, you make my point. You say "the basic approach almost sounds like the ADDIE framework." And I write, "Instructional design does not own the patent on this basic approach humans use to solve problems." Barb, you say that as an instructional designer, "what I heard you say is that you equate ISD with ONE type of learning process or style." Well, no, I questioned whether the same instructional design approach would be valid for cognitive learning, emotional learning, physical learning, disciplined listening, and wine tasting. I am skeptical that the same design approach fits both learning to speak French and learning to rollerblade unless you water ADDIE and HPT down beyond recoginiton." The Big Question was "how much an instructional designer and instructional design are needed?" I don't think instructional design in and of itself can answer that question. Donald, you make my point. You say “the basic approach almost sounds like the ADDIE framework.” And I write, “Instructional design does not own the patent on this basic approach humans use to solve problems.”

Barb, you say that as an instructional designer, “what I heard you say is that you equate ISD with ONE type of learning process or style.” Well, no, I questioned whether the same instructional design approach would be valid for cognitive learning, emotional learning, physical learning, disciplined listening, and wine tasting. I am skeptical that the same design approach fits both learning to speak French and learning to rollerblade unless you water ADDIE and HPT down beyond recoginiton.”

The Big Question was “how much an instructional designer and instructional design are needed?” I don’t think instructional design in and of itself can answer that question.

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By: Lee Solon http://www.internettime.com/2008/02/when-do-you-stop-designing/comment-page-1/#comment-1202 Lee Solon Sun, 03 Feb 2008 07:13:21 +0000 http://internettime.com/2008/02/01/when-do-you-stop-designing/#comment-1202 WHEN DO YOU BRING IN THE TROOPS Every project presents it’s own unique complexities and on that basis the more experienced you are at managing or developing the skill transfer process, then the more common sense and intuition you have to pull from. Having said that, many highly talented trainers or tutors can look at the sequencing of knowledge and in an instant know what should be changed to make the learning interaction hum. And that skill is priceless. People at that level don’t need an instructional designer and the market knows it. However, after the debacle of eLearning 1.0, I believe that eLearning 2.0 brings tracked, measured and audited elearning into clear focus. It is imperative that elearning or distance learning technologies offer assessment and authentication processes of skills being transferred, if the true value of the emerging technology is to be achieved. With that standard in mind, and in protection of your client’s objectives/learning outcomes, it makes common sense to have an instructional designer on the team or work with a contractor, especially if it is a large multi-course, multi team project, if only to protect yourself. However, the reality is that not all instructional designers are highly creative and capable of engaging the learner’s willingness to learn. A fairly cost-effective way you could consider working with an instructional designer but still retaining the creative approach is for you to create the flow charts for the content, identifying the outcome required at each step. You contract the ID to identify the sequenced learning steps to be achieved at each junction. You can then build the content creatively, using that as a roadmap moving forward. After the content has been completed, contract the ID to check that you worked according to the roadmap. Overall, I do think it is due time that elearning projects become 100% accountable for the delivery of skills that should transfer into increased business performance. WHEN DO YOU BRING IN THE TROOPS

Every project presents it’s own unique complexities and on that basis the more experienced you are at managing or developing the skill transfer process, then the more common sense and intuition you have to pull from.

Having said that, many highly talented trainers or tutors can look at the sequencing of knowledge and in an instant know what should be changed to make the learning interaction hum. And that skill is priceless. People at that level don’t need an instructional designer and the market knows it.

However, after the debacle of eLearning 1.0, I believe that eLearning 2.0 brings tracked, measured and audited elearning into clear focus. It is imperative that elearning or distance learning technologies offer assessment and authentication processes of skills being transferred, if the true value of the emerging technology is to be achieved.

With that standard in mind, and in protection of your client’s objectives/learning outcomes, it makes common sense to have an instructional designer on the team or work with a contractor, especially if it is a large multi-course, multi team project, if only to protect yourself. However, the reality is that not all instructional designers are highly creative and capable of engaging the learner’s willingness to learn.

A fairly cost-effective way you could consider working with an instructional designer but still retaining the creative approach is for you to create the flow charts for the content, identifying the outcome required at each step. You contract the ID to identify the sequenced learning steps to be achieved at each junction. You can then build the content creatively, using that as a roadmap moving forward. After the content has been completed, contract the ID to check that you worked according to the roadmap.

Overall, I do think it is due time that elearning projects become 100% accountable for the delivery of skills that should transfer into increased business performance.

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